Tuesday, April 23, 2019
The Y haplogroup Movements of People with QBZ67
Nadene Goldfoot
My brother's Y haplogroup test was first done at the 25 allele level. At each level are given different tags for identification-also depending on the years tested. He has had the tags of:
Q1b1a
Q M378,
Q-L245
Q Y2200
QBZ67
From Rebecca Canada on our Q haplogroup:
1. "Has Turkey and Iran been already dismissed as origins for our Q1b? If so, what are places being looked into?"
No. There are plenty of Q-M378 and Q-L245 men in Turkey too.
Q1b Ydna Answers from Rebekah Canada ( I am awaiting the results of our L245 and L272 tests. They should be ready by May 20, 2011.
Q-L245 as well as Q-M378 (not Q-L245) has been found throughout Iran. For that matter, it has been found throughout all of the ancient Babylonian and then Persian Empire lands.
1. As long as you are willing to believe that the Babylonian captivity happened and was not an invented story, it makes the presence of Q-L245 in the Jewish populations simple to explain.
"I realize that our Q1b is a more recent branch stemming from one man from about 800 yrs or so.. "
1. That was based on 25 marker data. There is a large +/- of about 400 years attached to it. If all of your 12 marker matches upgrade to 67, the dates will be more accurate. What it likely is most related to is the mass killings of European Jews in the middle ages. Only a few of the Q-L245 lines survived. There were others. That one man had dozens of 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 10th cousins. Many of those lines did not make it to 1900. Of those who did, the Nazis killed yet more.
As more people from Australia, South Asia, and South America test, maybe we will find more of those who survived. Right now, it is mostly American Jews who test.
I also fear that some people are just so racist against anyone from outside of Europe that they do not want their haplogroup to be from the Middle East.
My brother's Y haplogroup test was first done at the 25 allele level. At each level are given different tags for identification-also depending on the years tested. He has had the tags of:
Q1b1a
Q M378,
Q-L245
Q Y2200
QBZ67
1. "Has Turkey and Iran been already dismissed as origins for our Q1b? If so, what are places being looked into?"
No. There are plenty of Q-M378 and Q-L245 men in Turkey too.
Q1b Ydna Answers from Rebekah Canada ( I am awaiting the results of our L245 and L272 tests. They should be ready by May 20, 2011.
Q-L245 as well as Q-M378 (not Q-L245) has been found throughout Iran. For that matter, it has been found throughout all of the ancient Babylonian and then Persian Empire lands.
1. As long as you are willing to believe that the Babylonian captivity happened and was not an invented story, it makes the presence of Q-L245 in the Jewish populations simple to explain.
"I realize that our Q1b is a more recent branch stemming from one man from about 800 yrs or so.. "
1. That was based on 25 marker data. There is a large +/- of about 400 years attached to it. If all of your 12 marker matches upgrade to 67, the dates will be more accurate. What it likely is most related to is the mass killings of European Jews in the middle ages. Only a few of the Q-L245 lines survived. There were others. That one man had dozens of 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 10th cousins. Many of those lines did not make it to 1900. Of those who did, the Nazis killed yet more.
As more people from Australia, South Asia, and South America test, maybe we will find more of those who survived. Right now, it is mostly American Jews who test.
I also fear that some people are just so racist against anyone from outside of Europe that they do not want their haplogroup to be from the Middle East.
Update: 11/18/2020 :
Academia has just posted an exciting article on my father's Y haplogroup/haplotype of: Q1b, then later called Q-Y2200, now updated to be known as QBZ67. Not later than the 2nd millennium they branched out from the main trunk of the tree which started about 6 thousand years ago. This happened in Europe, and Central Asia, Our haplogroup is a subclade of Q- Y2225. We came from the areas of Iran, Pakistan, UAE, and other Arab countries. Branches of our Q line have been found in China. We're a part of the Ashkenazi Cluster group. This was written by Leon Kull.
SNP data is an important part of this testing, and is something I have been completely ignoring, not knowing its meaning. Jews of North Africa did not carry our haplogroup.
From friend Akhunazada Arif Hasan Khan at 8:50am November 27th:
Regarding Q (M242) the latest research says it originated in the South Asia (our or Pakistani/Indus Valley area and moved up into Central Asia from where it spread all over including a return journey
to where it had originally been. Population movements are very irregular and sporatic and for the most part, historically undocumented.
We are Jewish. Only 5% of the Jewish population are made up of men bearing the Q haplogroup. After testing to the point of 111 alleles, we find our title is now QBZ67 of which only one other person at ftdna company also bears besides my brother and happens to be a match as 4th cousin.
My brother's ancient traveling pattern 7,000 to 8,000 years ago in the farming stage shows we started from around Aleppo, Syria and traveled NW into Turkey, in Ankara, then Bulgaria, Budapest, Slovakia, even into Switzerland and into Germany. This would have started around 6,000 BCE to 5,000 BCE way before Abraham was born. He was born in the 2nd millennium about 1948 BCE. Moses wasn't even born till 1391 BCE.
My brother's ancient traveling pattern 7,000 to 8,000 years ago in the farming stage shows we started from around Aleppo, Syria and traveled NW into Turkey, in Ankara, then Bulgaria, Budapest, Slovakia, even into Switzerland and into Germany. This would have started around 6,000 BCE to 5,000 BCE way before Abraham was born. He was born in the 2nd millennium about 1948 BCE. Moses wasn't even born till 1391 BCE.
I have thought for some time that we might be related distantly to the Pashtuns of Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of India. They do have people carrying a Q haplogroup. Now I think it's also possible after reading about the Seljuk or Saljuq Turks the Crusades and the Ottoman Empire, that we could be related to them as well because the origin of Q is said to be found from Siberia, Mongolia and parts of Turkey. I wonder if Mongolian genes weren't introduced by the Mongolian invasion into Jerusalem after the Crusades.
"In 1258, the Mongols under the leader Hulagu, on their quest to further expand the Mongol Empire, successfully captured the center of power in the Islamic world, the city of Baghdad, effectively destroying the Abbasid dynasty. After Baghdad, the Mongol forces, including some Christians from the previously conquered or submitted territories of Georgia, Cilician Armenia and Antioch, went on to conquer Syria, the domain of the Ayyubid dynasty. The Mongols took the city of Aleppo, and on March 1, 1260, they conquered Damascus, destroying the Ayyubid Dynasty as well..
Mongol raids into Palestine took place towards the end of the Crusades, following the temporarily successful Mongol invasions of Syria, primarily in 1260 and 1300. Following each of these invasions, there existed a period of a few months during which the Mongols were able to launch raids southward into Palestine, reaching as far as Gaza.
The raids were executed by a relatively small part of the Mongol army, which proceeded to loot, kill, and destroy. However, the Mongols appeared to have had no intention, on either occasion, of integrating Palestine into the Mongol administrative system, and a few months after the Syrian invasions, Mamluk forces returned from Egypt and reoccupied the region with little resistance History disagrees with each researcher as to what happened to Jerusalem and its valuables. The Mongols were intensive in the looting and attacking. I wonder how much raping was accomplished as well.
WHO WE ARE NOT
"A study conducted in 2013 found no evidence of a Khazar origin for Ashkenazi Jews and suggested that "Ashkenazi Jews share the greatest genetic ancestry with other Jewish populations, and among non-Jewish populations, with groups from Europe and the Middle East. No particular similarity of Ashkenazi Jews with populations from the Caucasus is evident, particularly with the populations that most closely represent the Khazar region. In this view, analysis of Ashkenazi Jews together with a large sample from the region of the Khazar Khaganate would corroborate earlier results that Ashkenazi Jews derive their ancestry primarily from populations of the Middle East and Europe, that they possess considerable shared ancestry with other Jewish populations, and that there is no indication of a significant genetic contribution either from within or from north of the Caucasus region."
In 2016, together with R. Das, P. Wexler and M. Pirooznia, Elhaik advanced the view that the first Ashkenazi populations to speak the Yiddish language came from areas near four villages in Eastern Turkey along the Silk Road whose names derived from the word "Ashkenaz", arguing that Iranian, Greek, Turkish, and Slav populations converted on that travel route before moving to Khazaria, where a small-scale conversion took place. The study was dismissed by Sergio DellaPergola as a "falsification", noting it failed to include Jewish groups such as the Italkim and Sephardic Jews, to whom Ashkenazi Jews are closely related genetically. Shaul Stampfer, a professor of Soviet and East European Jewry at the Hebrew University, called Elhaik's research "basically nonsense". Elhaik replied that the DNA of non-Ashkenazic Jews would not affect the origin of DNA hypothesized for the former. Prof. Dovid Katz, founder of Vilnius University’s Yiddish Institute criticized the study’s linguistic analysis. “The authors have melded accurate but contextually meaningless genetic correlations with laughable linguistic theories that now proliferate, sadly, as a consequence of a much weakened Yiddish academic environment internationally ... there is not a single word or sound in Yiddish that comes from Iranian or Turkish".[19] In joint study published in 2016 by Genome Biology and Evolution, Pavel Flegontov from Department of Biology and Ecology, Faculty of Science, University of Ostrava, Czech Republic, A.A. Kharkevich Institute of Linguistics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, Mark G. Thomas from Research Department of Genetics, Evolution and Environment, University College London, UK, Valentina Fedchenko from Saint Petersburg State University, and George Starostin from Russian State University for the Humanities, dismissed both the genetic and linguistic components of Elhaik et al. study arguing that "GPS is a provenancing tool suited to inferring the geographic region where a modern and recently unadmixed genome is most likely to arise, but is hardly suitable for admixed populations and for tracing ancestry up to 1000 years before present, as its authors have previously claimed. Moreover, all methods of historical linguistics concur that Yiddish is a Germanic language, with no reliable evidence for Slavic, Iranian, or Turkic substrata." The authors concluded:
Labels: iran, Turkey, Y haplogroup QBZ67
Romania-Lithuania Home For Our 4th Cousin: Origins of Our Y Haplogroup
Nadene Goldfoot
We have a 4th cousin with the very same Y haplogroup as our Goldfoot line of QBZ67, but the ancestor is from Romania and not Lithuania or Poland which are in the Pale of Settlement. So at 4th level of cousins, tested through FTNDA, that is quite a stretch in time and geography. It's much closer to Turkey and the Seljaq Turks, the Turks of the Ottoman Empire who controlled the Middle East for 400 years, losing it only at the end of WWI.
I also note that another DNA cousin with ancestors from Latvia, is a neighbor of Lithuania. We've had DNA cousins from Belarus and Ukraine as well and those countries are part of the Pale. The Pale was controlled by Russia through Catherine II until the end of WWI in 1917.
The interesting thing is that his ancestor and our ggrandfather, Movsha ben Josel b: 1836, were distillers. His manufacturing of alcohol spirits in the USA and ours listed as a distiller-the maker of alcohol. So occupations were the same.
He also is 4th cousin to our 2nd to 3rd cousin, Ian Goldfoot whose family had gone to South Africa whereas our grandfather opted for the USA and they parted company .
Update: By using my brother's ancient origins map, I see that he originated out of Georgia which is or was part of Russia from the area around Tbillsi up north to Smolensk and then westward to Poland, and onto the Czech Republic area and finally into Germany where our Ashkenazim came from. The Yamnaya people was mentioned who brought in horses instead of Anatolia of a language group.
We are related to Rabbi Samson Wertheimer b: 1658 in Worms, Germany and died 1724 in Vienna, Austria, as found in the FTDNA group we matched with-the Halpern group, and he was the nephew of Rabbi Samuel Oppenheimer b: 1630 probably also born in Worms but the first to settle in Vienna after the 1670 expulsion of Jews. He died in 1703. . They both were philanthropists and Court Jews. Court Jews were involved with banks and were able to loan heads of state money. . I see that on the colored Q chart of the FTDNA's Q group, a Jehuda Lob Oppenheimer b: 1430 was a QBZ37. He lived in Worms, Germany, which was the center of the Ashkenazim Rabbis where RASHI would also have been. This group connects to RASHI and he in turn connects to King David of Israel.
Resource:https://goldfoot_genealogy.blogspot.com/2015/07/were-from-court-jews-of-vienna.html
I also note that another DNA cousin with ancestors from Latvia, is a neighbor of Lithuania. We've had DNA cousins from Belarus and Ukraine as well and those countries are part of the Pale. The Pale was controlled by Russia through Catherine II until the end of WWI in 1917.
The interesting thing is that his ancestor and our ggrandfather, Movsha ben Josel b: 1836, were distillers. His manufacturing of alcohol spirits in the USA and ours listed as a distiller-the maker of alcohol. So occupations were the same.
He also is 4th cousin to our 2nd to 3rd cousin, Ian Goldfoot whose family had gone to South Africa whereas our grandfather opted for the USA and they parted company .
Update: By using my brother's ancient origins map, I see that he originated out of Georgia which is or was part of Russia from the area around Tbillsi up north to Smolensk and then westward to Poland, and onto the Czech Republic area and finally into Germany where our Ashkenazim came from. The Yamnaya people was mentioned who brought in horses instead of Anatolia of a language group.
We are related to Rabbi Samson Wertheimer b: 1658 in Worms, Germany and died 1724 in Vienna, Austria, as found in the FTDNA group we matched with-the Halpern group, and he was the nephew of Rabbi Samuel Oppenheimer b: 1630 probably also born in Worms but the first to settle in Vienna after the 1670 expulsion of Jews. He died in 1703. . They both were philanthropists and Court Jews. Court Jews were involved with banks and were able to loan heads of state money. . I see that on the colored Q chart of the FTDNA's Q group, a Jehuda Lob Oppenheimer b: 1430 was a QBZ37. He lived in Worms, Germany, which was the center of the Ashkenazim Rabbis where RASHI would also have been. This group connects to RASHI and he in turn connects to King David of Israel.
Resource:https://goldfoot_genealogy.blogspot.com/2015/07/were-from-court-jews-of-vienna.html
Labels: Georgia, Germany, Oppenheimer, Wertheimer, Worms, Y haplogroup QBZ67
